A while back françois xavier CREVEL, sent me some Photo’s of the CSS Alabama and the USS Kearsage that was newly discovered by him. I like them so much I ask if I could make a page of them and he agreed the page is called (Newly Discovered Photo's CSS Alabama and USS Kearsarge) , we were both happy the way the page turn out then I for got about it, oh, I would updated it from time to time for him as I am just the host and all comments were to be address to him.
Well last week I got a mail from him giving me a update on the comments he was getting, and I was in for a big surprise as I read the letters I found that there was a big controversy going on over the photos. I found the letters very interesting and I know you well too, so I ask Mr. Crevel, if I could make a page on them and he agreed.
After you read these letters you may wish to take a look at the photos, and read about how they were found and what American historian Ron TARBURTON, found on his research on them. To see the photos and read the story behind them take this link.
http://civilwarthosesurnames.blogspot.com/2009/12/newly-discovered-photos-css-alabama-and.html
Note. Those who whish to comment on either of these pages can address them to: francois.crevel@syngenta.com
------------------------
Dennis,
I wanted to thank you first for your involvement in these photographs.
I also wanted to share with you these exchanges of emails that we have with Mr. Foenander and Mr Sullivan on the photo of the crew. As you can see, we do not really agree on authenticating the photograph (that is the least we can say!)
françois xavier CREVEL.
------------------------
Letter from Terry Foenander to françois CREVEL.
January 21, 2010.
Mr. Crevel,
Could you please advise me who Mr. Ron Tarburton is, where does he live, and if he is an authority on the CSS ALABAMA?
I do not believe that this is a photo of the CSS ALABAMA crew, and the uniforms are not Confederate Navy issue.
Regards,
Terry.
-------------------------------
Letter from françois CREVEL to Terry Foenander.
January 21, 2010.
Hello Mr. Terry Foenander,
At the request of RON TARBURTON, I contacted about a photograph found among a batch of 6 photographs in April 2009 at a flea market in France. The 6 photographs bear the stamp of Cherbourg photographer Francois Sebastien Rondin. A photograph was selected to benefit from the attention RON TARBURTON. This is the montage directed by François Rondin (see attachment), and supposed to represent the crew of the USS Kearsarge (see title of the
photograph attached.)
In fact, according RON TARBURTON, this can not be the crew of the USS Kearsarge, but in all likelihood, it would be the crew of the CSS Alabama. Today, after more than 6 months of research, Ron has successfully identified more than 20 crew members. I can tell you the crewmen identified by RON TARBURTON from the photograph on which each crew member is assigned a number. I wanted first before any communication with you whether you were in favor of a partnership to identify other crew members and at the same time give us your opinion about this photograph that is flowing Much ink today.
There seems there is currently no photograph of Confederate marines dressed crew. Ron told me about the existence of a photo album made in England in August 1864 of 50 portraits of crew members. Do you have access to these photographs? On the other hand, I've also sent an elarged photograph of the ship is at the top right. After much hesitation, Ron concluded that this was a photograph of the CSS Alabama made just before the fight. What differentiates the photograph taken in 1863 in Singapore is the other white stripe on the hull top. In fact, in literature, we could find antique engravings of the CSS ALABAMA with the white stripe on the hull. I would also like to have your opinion on this subject.
François xavier CREVEL
PS: sorry for my English language!
---------------------------------------------
Letter from François CREVEL to Mr Foenander
January 22, 2010.
Hello Mr Foenander,
Thank you for your opinion.
But I give you my opinion about your remark. If the uniforms are not Confederate Navy issue it is because Bulloch---the purchasing agent that provided the uniforms, provided Navy uniforms that came from British factories that produced uniforms "in the British pattern" if it is not the crew of the Alabama then why do Ron TARBURTON has more than a dozen officers of that ship in the collage group and several of the non-commissioned officers---that is Petty Officers are sporting the left sleeve insignia adopted by the Confederate States Navy (the fouled anchor)?
hope to read you
Fançois CREVEL
---------------------------------
Letter from Terry Foenander to Fançois CREVEL
January 24, 2010.
Mr. Crevel,
I think that it would be best if you contact some of the actual authorities on the CSS ALABAMA, and they will most certainly confirm that you photo is definitely NOT of the crew of the ALABAMA. I have already been in contact with several persons, and they have also shown the photograph around, and all of them have come to the conclusion that it is definitely not of the crew of the CSS ALABAMA. Some of these persons, who have studied the Confederate Navy, and also the CSS ALABAMA, are researcher and author, Mr. David M. Sullivan, of Rutland, Massachusetts, Mr. Andrew Bowcock, who published a volume on the CSS ALABAMA, Mr. Michael Hammerson of England, who has been researching the ALABAMA as well as the Confederate cruisers, and who has also written a few articles on these subjects, and also Mr. Bob Jones, of Liverpool, in England, who has done a lot of research on James Bulloch and other aspects of the CSS ALABAMA, etc. All of them agree that the photo is not of the CSS ALABAMA, and the uniforms are entirely different to that specified.
Mr. David Sullivan has already written to you, but if you need further evidence, I will get several of the others to contact you. Also, you may want to know that several of the other photos that you have, that are shown on Dennis's web site, of the USS KEARSARGE, are also shown at the United States Naval Historical Center's web site, and are freely available to download and use. The two photomontages that you have are not at this web site, but four of the USS KEARSARGE photos are shown there.
I do hope you understand that we are all trying to help you out, as much as we can. I think you should also, perhaps, contact the Museum of the Confederacy, in Richmond, Virginia, to confirm that the photo is definitely not of the CSS ALABAMA, and they will confirm this for you.
Best regards,
Terry.
-------------------------------------------------
Letter from François CREVEL to Terry Foenander
January 24, 2010.
Hello Mr FOENANDER,
.
I have noted your expertise in your area. However, if I go your way, you can then respond honestly to these questions must be answered objectively because you have still not responded.
1) if this is not an assemblage of the crew of the CSS Alabama then why do more than a dozen of the officers here wear the faces of the officers of the crew of the Alabama?
2) Why do several of the non-commissioned officers wear the left sleeve insignia of the petty officers of the Confederate States Navy (the fouled anchor) which is a known and given fact?
3) Why is it that these men are wearing a form of British pattern Navy uniform that is known to have been procured for them in England by Bulloch in 1862?
4) If this is not the crew of the Alabama then why do some of the faces in the photo collage match up with faces found amongst known crew members of the Alabama as they were photographed by two photographers when that ship was in Simon's Town Cape Colony South Africa in August of 1862?
This unique photo collage has given us the opportunity to see the CSS Alabama (the very ship herself ) and most of her crew just days before she sank beneath the guns of her foe there off Cherbourg.
This is an in depth research project that is still in progress
Hope to read you
François xavier CREVEL
---------------------------
Letter from François CREVEL to Mr. FOENANDER and Mr. SULLIVAN.
January 24, 2010.
Dear Mr FOENANDER and Mr SULLIVAN, I have other questions for you.
5) why does the mystery ship in the upper left hand corner match up with eyewitness accounts of the description of the Alabama in her final days?
6) If this is not the Alabama then it is an elaborate forgery or fraud by RON TARBURTON?
So you will have to prove that which means perhaps you have to cancel out the authentic stamp of the Rondin studio in Cherbourg that is seen on the original photo?
Our position at the moment is: Our cause is just. We have the facts (the new facts), I am sure that, as true historians, that you know history is a living thing and not a "dead thing" that it is fluid and subject to movement and change and yes sometimes even iconoclastic discoveries, like this one.
The British pattern uniforms issued by Bulloch are there. Bulloch himself is there. The Confederate Navy insignia is there. The faces of unidentified but matched up crew members of the Alabama found in the Cape Town photos are there. The ship Alabama was disguised by Semmes before entering Cherbourg and an eyewitness account of how the rigging of her mizzen mast was altered in appearance matches exactly with the fashion of the mizzen mast rigging of the ship in the photo in question as well as many other characteristics if one closely examines that photo as well.
I want to have the reply for each question, please.
Hope to read you
François xavier CREVEL
--------------------------------
Well last week I got a mail from him giving me a update on the comments he was getting, and I was in for a big surprise as I read the letters I found that there was a big controversy going on over the photos. I found the letters very interesting and I know you well too, so I ask Mr. Crevel, if I could make a page on them and he agreed.
After you read these letters you may wish to take a look at the photos, and read about how they were found and what American historian Ron TARBURTON, found on his research on them. To see the photos and read the story behind them take this link.
http://civilwarthosesurnames.blogspot.com/2009/12/newly-discovered-photos-css-alabama-and.html
Note. Those who whish to comment on either of these pages can address them to: francois.crevel@syngenta.com
------------------------
Dennis,
I wanted to thank you first for your involvement in these photographs.
I also wanted to share with you these exchanges of emails that we have with Mr. Foenander and Mr Sullivan on the photo of the crew. As you can see, we do not really agree on authenticating the photograph (that is the least we can say!)
françois xavier CREVEL.
------------------------
Letter from Terry Foenander to françois CREVEL.
January 21, 2010.
Mr. Crevel,
Could you please advise me who Mr. Ron Tarburton is, where does he live, and if he is an authority on the CSS ALABAMA?
I do not believe that this is a photo of the CSS ALABAMA crew, and the uniforms are not Confederate Navy issue.
Regards,
Terry.
-------------------------------
Letter from françois CREVEL to Terry Foenander.
January 21, 2010.
Hello Mr. Terry Foenander,
At the request of RON TARBURTON, I contacted about a photograph found among a batch of 6 photographs in April 2009 at a flea market in France. The 6 photographs bear the stamp of Cherbourg photographer Francois Sebastien Rondin. A photograph was selected to benefit from the attention RON TARBURTON. This is the montage directed by François Rondin (see attachment), and supposed to represent the crew of the USS Kearsarge (see title of the
photograph attached.)
In fact, according RON TARBURTON, this can not be the crew of the USS Kearsarge, but in all likelihood, it would be the crew of the CSS Alabama. Today, after more than 6 months of research, Ron has successfully identified more than 20 crew members. I can tell you the crewmen identified by RON TARBURTON from the photograph on which each crew member is assigned a number. I wanted first before any communication with you whether you were in favor of a partnership to identify other crew members and at the same time give us your opinion about this photograph that is flowing Much ink today.
There seems there is currently no photograph of Confederate marines dressed crew. Ron told me about the existence of a photo album made in England in August 1864 of 50 portraits of crew members. Do you have access to these photographs? On the other hand, I've also sent an elarged photograph of the ship is at the top right. After much hesitation, Ron concluded that this was a photograph of the CSS Alabama made just before the fight. What differentiates the photograph taken in 1863 in Singapore is the other white stripe on the hull top. In fact, in literature, we could find antique engravings of the CSS ALABAMA with the white stripe on the hull. I would also like to have your opinion on this subject.
François xavier CREVEL
PS: sorry for my English language!
---------------------------------------------
Letter from François CREVEL to Mr Foenander
January 22, 2010.
Hello Mr Foenander,
Thank you for your opinion.
But I give you my opinion about your remark. If the uniforms are not Confederate Navy issue it is because Bulloch---the purchasing agent that provided the uniforms, provided Navy uniforms that came from British factories that produced uniforms "in the British pattern" if it is not the crew of the Alabama then why do Ron TARBURTON has more than a dozen officers of that ship in the collage group and several of the non-commissioned officers---that is Petty Officers are sporting the left sleeve insignia adopted by the Confederate States Navy (the fouled anchor)?
hope to read you
Fançois CREVEL
---------------------------------
Letter from Terry Foenander to Fançois CREVEL
January 24, 2010.
Mr. Crevel,
I think that it would be best if you contact some of the actual authorities on the CSS ALABAMA, and they will most certainly confirm that you photo is definitely NOT of the crew of the ALABAMA. I have already been in contact with several persons, and they have also shown the photograph around, and all of them have come to the conclusion that it is definitely not of the crew of the CSS ALABAMA. Some of these persons, who have studied the Confederate Navy, and also the CSS ALABAMA, are researcher and author, Mr. David M. Sullivan, of Rutland, Massachusetts, Mr. Andrew Bowcock, who published a volume on the CSS ALABAMA, Mr. Michael Hammerson of England, who has been researching the ALABAMA as well as the Confederate cruisers, and who has also written a few articles on these subjects, and also Mr. Bob Jones, of Liverpool, in England, who has done a lot of research on James Bulloch and other aspects of the CSS ALABAMA, etc. All of them agree that the photo is not of the CSS ALABAMA, and the uniforms are entirely different to that specified.
Mr. David Sullivan has already written to you, but if you need further evidence, I will get several of the others to contact you. Also, you may want to know that several of the other photos that you have, that are shown on Dennis's web site, of the USS KEARSARGE, are also shown at the United States Naval Historical Center's web site, and are freely available to download and use. The two photomontages that you have are not at this web site, but four of the USS KEARSARGE photos are shown there.
I do hope you understand that we are all trying to help you out, as much as we can. I think you should also, perhaps, contact the Museum of the Confederacy, in Richmond, Virginia, to confirm that the photo is definitely not of the CSS ALABAMA, and they will confirm this for you.
Best regards,
Terry.
-------------------------------------------------
Letter from François CREVEL to Terry Foenander
January 24, 2010.
Hello Mr FOENANDER,
.
I have noted your expertise in your area. However, if I go your way, you can then respond honestly to these questions must be answered objectively because you have still not responded.
1) if this is not an assemblage of the crew of the CSS Alabama then why do more than a dozen of the officers here wear the faces of the officers of the crew of the Alabama?
2) Why do several of the non-commissioned officers wear the left sleeve insignia of the petty officers of the Confederate States Navy (the fouled anchor) which is a known and given fact?
3) Why is it that these men are wearing a form of British pattern Navy uniform that is known to have been procured for them in England by Bulloch in 1862?
4) If this is not the crew of the Alabama then why do some of the faces in the photo collage match up with faces found amongst known crew members of the Alabama as they were photographed by two photographers when that ship was in Simon's Town Cape Colony South Africa in August of 1862?
This unique photo collage has given us the opportunity to see the CSS Alabama (the very ship herself ) and most of her crew just days before she sank beneath the guns of her foe there off Cherbourg.
This is an in depth research project that is still in progress
Hope to read you
François xavier CREVEL
---------------------------
Letter from François CREVEL to Mr. FOENANDER and Mr. SULLIVAN.
January 24, 2010.
Dear Mr FOENANDER and Mr SULLIVAN, I have other questions for you.
5) why does the mystery ship in the upper left hand corner match up with eyewitness accounts of the description of the Alabama in her final days?
6) If this is not the Alabama then it is an elaborate forgery or fraud by RON TARBURTON?
So you will have to prove that which means perhaps you have to cancel out the authentic stamp of the Rondin studio in Cherbourg that is seen on the original photo?
Our position at the moment is: Our cause is just. We have the facts (the new facts), I am sure that, as true historians, that you know history is a living thing and not a "dead thing" that it is fluid and subject to movement and change and yes sometimes even iconoclastic discoveries, like this one.
The British pattern uniforms issued by Bulloch are there. Bulloch himself is there. The Confederate Navy insignia is there. The faces of unidentified but matched up crew members of the Alabama found in the Cape Town photos are there. The ship Alabama was disguised by Semmes before entering Cherbourg and an eyewitness account of how the rigging of her mizzen mast was altered in appearance matches exactly with the fashion of the mizzen mast rigging of the ship in the photo in question as well as many other characteristics if one closely examines that photo as well.
I want to have the reply for each question, please.
Hope to read you
François xavier CREVEL
--------------------------------
Updated February 7, 2010.
Here are more controversial letters sent to me by Mr. Crevel, now these letters have been forwarded back and forth so many times it’s hard to tell who’s who. But it’s not all that important, but what is, important is the content of the questions and answers, and so the Controversy goes on.
----------------------------
From: Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 14:37
To: Neyland, Robert NAVHISTCEN
Cc: FINNEYJR, EDWIN Jr, NAVHISTHERITAGECOM
Subject: FW: Alabama crew photo
Bob: Presuming that the photo in question is the one we discussed (apparently
labeled "Pyramid"), I am deeply suspicious of the suggested identification of this composite photograph, and am fairly certain that the photo does not show members of the U.S. Navy. My reasoning follows:
(1) The warship vignetted in the upper left of the "Pyramid" photo is definitely neither Kearsarge nor Alabama, but is a considerably larger vessel. It resembles a sloop of war of similar size to USS Hartford or one of her sisters, but the ratio of distance between the masts (roughly 13 between fore and main masts, and 7 between main and mizzen masts) is greater than on any USN sloop that I could find (USN ships of this description were
typically rather closer to 12-8 in mast spacing ratio). That includes the five "Hartford" types, the Congress (a much longer ship, with fewer -- and smaller -- gun ports) and the sailing sloops Macedonian, Constellation and Cumberland. Gunport count also appears different, with only Cumberland being close to that of the ship in the photo (and the mast spacing ratio difference between her and the ship in the photo is even greater than in
other USN sloops of similar size). I can't see a smokestack (or stacks) in the photo, so can offer no judgement on that, but the shape of the "clipper" bow is rather fuller than was typical of post-Civil War USN ships. We do not have enough photography for me to offer any trustworthy opinion on whose ship this might be, but I'm pretty certain it isn't ours'.
(2) The people in the photo also don't look American. The officer at the top center (peak of the pyramid) has a superficial resemblance to Raphael Semmes, but not a compelling one. Compare views of him posted on our "Online Library" ( http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/pers-us/uspers-s/r-semmes.htm ) and I think you'll see what I mean. There were certainly other officers, both American and European, who looked much the same. The many fellows in single-breasted jackets makes me think rather more "Royal Marines" than the U.S. (or Confederate) variety, and the enlisted sailors' uniforms also don't look quite like ours'. So, while I can't say what the photo shows, I can certainly say what it doesn't. Definitely not Kearsarge or Alabama, and probably not American at all.
Hope this is of some value.
Chuck.
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Neyland, Robert NAVHISTCEN
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:46 PM
To:
Cc: Gordon Watts
Subject: FW: Alabama crew photo
Dear Francois and Bertrand
Below is our assessment of the attached photo. We are talking about this photo? If not please send me the correct photo. Some of the other photos you forwarded are certainly of USS Kearsarge and are actually in quite good condition. Thank you for sharing them with us.
Bob Neyland
----------------------------------
From: "Stephen Kinnaman"
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:51 AM
To: "'Bob Jones'"
Subject: FW: Alabama crew photo.
Dear Bob, Sure enough, my instincts were correct. Please find attached the same photograph you sent (with a M. Crevel copyright mark) accompanied by an evaluation forwarded by Bob Neyland (a top historian at the Naval Historical Center, who headed up the conservation of the Confederate submarine Hunley). The evaluation is that the photograph is neither Alabama or Kearsarge, and possibly not even an American ship.
Best regards,
Stephen
-----------------------------------------
De : Terry Foenander
Envoyé : samedi 30 janvier 2010 00:43
À : Bob Jones; michael hammerson; Dave Sullivan; John Collier
Cc : Crevel Francois FRSC
Objet : RE: Alabama crew photo
Bob,
Thanks for that, and I am also including my own response to Mike, as well. It seems that Mr. Haberlein's comments, as well as the actual response from Mr. Neyland were sent to Mr. Crevel (whom I am also including in this message, as he seems to be unconvinced, despite the comments coming from authorities who are very, very qualified to make an identification) way back in July of last year, yet Crevel continues to pass this trashy image around to so many persons, trying to get a YES answer for something that is clearly not of the ALABAMA or of the KEARSARGE. Will he ever be convinced by the experts, or will he continue to pass it around as the ALABAMA for years to come?
Regards,
Terry.
----------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: michael hammerson
To: francois.crevel@syngenta.com; Terry Foenander; Bob Jones robert.neyland;
Cc:
Sent: Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:54 am
Subject: Re: Alabama crew photo.
You have asked for our views. We did not offer them you approached us.
We have given our opinions, in a spirit of helpfulness, and with no motive other than helpfulness, in response to your approach. We would all be delighted if a new photograph of the crew of the Alabama were to be discovered.
You have exercised your choice to reject our opinions. Since you appear to already have all the facts you need to satisfy yourself that the picture is genuine, you do not need our views and had no need to ask us in the first place.
I personally have no more to add, other than to repeat our strong recommendation that you must seek the opinions of the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond and the National Maritime Museum in London. I have no wish, or intention, to engage further in this correspondence.
I will, however, simply add that, if you were to offer me the picture, at any price, however low, I would not want it.
I have no more to add.
M. Hammerson.
Dear all,
I have noted your expertise in your area. However, if I go your way, you can then respond honestly to these questions must be answered objectively because you have still not responded.
1) if this is not an assemblage of the crew of the CSS Alabama then why do more than a dozen of the officers here wear the faces of the officers of the crew of the Alabama?
2) Why do several of the non-commissioned officers wear the left sleeve insignia of the petty officers of the Confederate States Navy (the fouled anchor) which is a known and given fact?
3) Why is it that these men are wearing a form of British pattern Navy uniform that is known to have been procured for them in England by Bulloch in 1862?
4) If this is not the crew of the Alabama then why do some of the faces in the photo collage match up with faces found amongst known crew members of the Alabama as they were photographed by two photographers when that ship was in Simon's Town Cape Colony South Africa in August of 1862?
5) why does the mystery ship in the upper left hand corner match up with eyewitness accounts of the description of the Alabama in her final days?
6) If this is not the Alabama then it is an elaborate forgery or fraud by RON TARBURTON?
Our position at the moment is: Our cause is just. We have the facts (the new facts)
I am sure that, as true historians, that you know history is a living thing and not a "dead thing" that it is fluid and subject to movement and change and yes sometimes even iconoclastic discoveries, like this one. The British pattern uniforms issued by Bulloch are there. Bulloch himself is there. The Confederate Navy insignia is there. The faces of unidentified but matched up crew members of the Alabama found in the Cape Town photos are there. The ship Alabama was disguised by Semmes before entering Cherbourg and an eyewitness account of how the rigging of her mizzen mast was altered in appearance matches exactly with the fashion of the mizzen mast rigging of the ship in the photo in question as well as many other characteristics if one closely examines that photo as well.
I want to have the reply for each question, please.
Hope to read you
françois xavier CREVEL
----------------------------------------
De : Terry Foenander
Envoyé : lundi 1 février 2010 21:02
À : Crevel Francois FRSC; Dave Sullivan; michael hammerson
Cc : Bob Jones; John Collier
Objet : RE: Alabama crew photo.
Dear Mr. Crevel,
I cannot see why you just ignore all the proper and decent opinions of the many experienced and qualified gentlemen who have told you, directly, that the photo is most definitely NOT of the ALABAMA. Several of these gentlemen have known about, and researched the ALABAMA, her officers and crew, and other aspects of the cruisers and Southern personnel in England, including Bulloch, for many years, some for decades. They are definitely much more qualified to make final decisions and observations about your photo, than Ron Tarburton.
You need to also consult the OFFICIAL RECORDS OF THE UNION AND CONFEDERATE NAVIES IN THE WAR OF THE REBELLION, and many other volumes, including Mr. Andrew Bowcock's volume on the CSS ALABAMA, all of which indicate and show that none of the uniforms of the Confederate personnel match anything that is shown in your photograph at all. Look, for instance, at the photos of the Confederate officers from the ALABAMA, and you will see that the uniforms do not match your photo at all, and the curled stripes shown on the end of the sleeves of the Confederate officers' uniforms are definitely missing in your photo. There are so many other such discrepancies in your photo, but, for some reason, you choose not to notice all of these.
The photo of the vessel shown in the top left hand corner of your photo is certainly not comparable at all the the photos that we know exist, of the ALABAMA. There is no comparison at all, no matter what assumptions you base your verdict on. The ALABAMA NEVER had a white stripe, and did not have one painted on, at any time. There is no documented proof at all of this, and if anyone tries to make an assumption, without any documentation whatsoever, that it did, then it is only a false assumption. Do you really believe that so many persons with so much knowledge about the Confederate Navy, and the Confederate Navy uniforms want to trick you into believing that your photo is not of the ALABAMA? Everyone is out to help you, as much as we can, not to deceive you in any way at all.
True historians and researchers help each other, and do not falsify and fabricate. So, if you still choose to disbelieve all of us, despite our collective assistance and joint efforts to help you, then it will be to your own detriment, and you will be the one who will eventually suffer the consequences.
We have suggested that you send the image, or a copy to the Museum of the Confederacy and the Maritime Museum, both of which will be able to confirm or deny what you state, but you have still chosen to ignore our helpful advise. It is no good sending us questions about the uniform, when it clearly differentiates quite a bit from that of the Confederate Navy uniform, as shown in the many photos in existence. If you continue to ignore our advise and assistance, then why bother contacting us in the first place. We have tried, from the beginning to help you, yet you ignore our final decisions on the photo.
I repeat our final decision - the photo is definitely NOT one showing the crew of the ALABAMA, and neither does it show the crew of the KEARSARGE. As stated directly by authorities from the U.S. Naval Historical Center, and others, it is not even any uniform worn by American personnel, at all, Union or Confederate. You were advised of this last year, yet you continue to ignore all this important data, from qualified persons, and still place messages online that the photo is of the ALABAMA. If you are not going to listen to those who know best, then there is no point even bothering to contact anyone of us, at all. We have tried to help you, from the very beginning, but you just choose to ignore our own decisions about the photo. The ball is in your court.
Best regards,
Terry.
--------------------------------
-----Message d'origine-----
De : françois CREVEL
Envoyé : mercredi 3 février 2010 07:35
À :
Cc :
Objet : RE: Alabama crew photo
Dear all,
I wanted first to tell you that I respect in good faith your professionalism and your career. But when I have an idea in my head I'm tough until you prove that I'm wrong. Returning now to the fact. I'll try to answer your various questions but also try to do the same. Respect the ideas of each is important in a democracy and he does speak louder than the other to be right. Regarding the photograph mosaic CSS ALABAMA, I will answer your first question about the white strip band. According to you, we do not see on any illustration or engraving of this alabama white stripe band on the hull of the ship. I answer in the negative as there are illustrations of time with the white stripe band. Include a single reference to a book which appears in an engraving frontpiece CSS ALABAMA with the white strip on a book written directly from the hand of Raphael Semmes. You will see then that this white band is on the etching and engraving that has been validated in person by Raphael Semmes. You could find this image on this URL and we have other images to proove that.
THE C.S.S. ALABAMA
Semmes. The Log of the Alabama and the Sumter (1865), front piece.
http://www.marshall.edu/library/speccoll/virtual_museum/css_alabama/alabama_images_menu.asp
To: Neyland, Robert NAVHISTCEN
Cc: FINNEYJR, EDWIN Jr, NAVHISTHERITAGECOM
Subject: FW: Alabama crew photo
Bob: Presuming that the photo in question is the one we discussed (apparently
labeled "Pyramid"), I am deeply suspicious of the suggested identification of this composite photograph, and am fairly certain that the photo does not show members of the U.S. Navy. My reasoning follows:
(1) The warship vignetted in the upper left of the "Pyramid" photo is definitely neither Kearsarge nor Alabama, but is a considerably larger vessel. It resembles a sloop of war of similar size to USS Hartford or one of her sisters, but the ratio of distance between the masts (roughly 13 between fore and main masts, and 7 between main and mizzen masts) is greater than on any USN sloop that I could find (USN ships of this description were
typically rather closer to 12-8 in mast spacing ratio). That includes the five "Hartford" types, the Congress (a much longer ship, with fewer -- and smaller -- gun ports) and the sailing sloops Macedonian, Constellation and Cumberland. Gunport count also appears different, with only Cumberland being close to that of the ship in the photo (and the mast spacing ratio difference between her and the ship in the photo is even greater than in
other USN sloops of similar size). I can't see a smokestack (or stacks) in the photo, so can offer no judgement on that, but the shape of the "clipper" bow is rather fuller than was typical of post-Civil War USN ships. We do not have enough photography for me to offer any trustworthy opinion on whose ship this might be, but I'm pretty certain it isn't ours'.
(2) The people in the photo also don't look American. The officer at the top center (peak of the pyramid) has a superficial resemblance to Raphael Semmes, but not a compelling one. Compare views of him posted on our "Online Library" ( http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/pers-us/uspers-s/r-semmes.htm ) and I think you'll see what I mean. There were certainly other officers, both American and European, who looked much the same. The many fellows in single-breasted jackets makes me think rather more "Royal Marines" than the U.S. (or Confederate) variety, and the enlisted sailors' uniforms also don't look quite like ours'. So, while I can't say what the photo shows, I can certainly say what it doesn't. Definitely not Kearsarge or Alabama, and probably not American at all.
Hope this is of some value.
Chuck.
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Neyland, Robert NAVHISTCEN
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:46 PM
To:
Cc: Gordon Watts
Subject: FW: Alabama crew photo
Dear Francois and Bertrand
Below is our assessment of the attached photo. We are talking about this photo? If not please send me the correct photo. Some of the other photos you forwarded are certainly of USS Kearsarge and are actually in quite good condition. Thank you for sharing them with us.
Bob Neyland
----------------------------------
From: "Stephen Kinnaman"
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:51 AM
To: "'Bob Jones'"
Subject: FW: Alabama crew photo.
Dear Bob, Sure enough, my instincts were correct. Please find attached the same photograph you sent (with a M. Crevel copyright mark) accompanied by an evaluation forwarded by Bob Neyland (a top historian at the Naval Historical Center, who headed up the conservation of the Confederate submarine Hunley). The evaluation is that the photograph is neither Alabama or Kearsarge, and possibly not even an American ship.
Best regards,
Stephen
-----------------------------------------
De : Terry Foenander
Envoyé : samedi 30 janvier 2010 00:43
À : Bob Jones; michael hammerson; Dave Sullivan; John Collier
Cc : Crevel Francois FRSC
Objet : RE: Alabama crew photo
Bob,
Thanks for that, and I am also including my own response to Mike, as well. It seems that Mr. Haberlein's comments, as well as the actual response from Mr. Neyland were sent to Mr. Crevel (whom I am also including in this message, as he seems to be unconvinced, despite the comments coming from authorities who are very, very qualified to make an identification) way back in July of last year, yet Crevel continues to pass this trashy image around to so many persons, trying to get a YES answer for something that is clearly not of the ALABAMA or of the KEARSARGE. Will he ever be convinced by the experts, or will he continue to pass it around as the ALABAMA for years to come?
Regards,
Terry.
----------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: michael hammerson
To: francois.crevel@syngenta.com; Terry Foenander; Bob Jones robert.neyland;
Cc:
Sent: Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:54 am
Subject: Re: Alabama crew photo.
You have asked for our views. We did not offer them you approached us.
We have given our opinions, in a spirit of helpfulness, and with no motive other than helpfulness, in response to your approach. We would all be delighted if a new photograph of the crew of the Alabama were to be discovered.
You have exercised your choice to reject our opinions. Since you appear to already have all the facts you need to satisfy yourself that the picture is genuine, you do not need our views and had no need to ask us in the first place.
I personally have no more to add, other than to repeat our strong recommendation that you must seek the opinions of the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond and the National Maritime Museum in London. I have no wish, or intention, to engage further in this correspondence.
I will, however, simply add that, if you were to offer me the picture, at any price, however low, I would not want it.
I have no more to add.
M. Hammerson.
Dear all,
I have noted your expertise in your area. However, if I go your way, you can then respond honestly to these questions must be answered objectively because you have still not responded.
1) if this is not an assemblage of the crew of the CSS Alabama then why do more than a dozen of the officers here wear the faces of the officers of the crew of the Alabama?
2) Why do several of the non-commissioned officers wear the left sleeve insignia of the petty officers of the Confederate States Navy (the fouled anchor) which is a known and given fact?
3) Why is it that these men are wearing a form of British pattern Navy uniform that is known to have been procured for them in England by Bulloch in 1862?
4) If this is not the crew of the Alabama then why do some of the faces in the photo collage match up with faces found amongst known crew members of the Alabama as they were photographed by two photographers when that ship was in Simon's Town Cape Colony South Africa in August of 1862?
5) why does the mystery ship in the upper left hand corner match up with eyewitness accounts of the description of the Alabama in her final days?
6) If this is not the Alabama then it is an elaborate forgery or fraud by RON TARBURTON?
Our position at the moment is: Our cause is just. We have the facts (the new facts)
I am sure that, as true historians, that you know history is a living thing and not a "dead thing" that it is fluid and subject to movement and change and yes sometimes even iconoclastic discoveries, like this one. The British pattern uniforms issued by Bulloch are there. Bulloch himself is there. The Confederate Navy insignia is there. The faces of unidentified but matched up crew members of the Alabama found in the Cape Town photos are there. The ship Alabama was disguised by Semmes before entering Cherbourg and an eyewitness account of how the rigging of her mizzen mast was altered in appearance matches exactly with the fashion of the mizzen mast rigging of the ship in the photo in question as well as many other characteristics if one closely examines that photo as well.
I want to have the reply for each question, please.
Hope to read you
françois xavier CREVEL
----------------------------------------
De : Terry Foenander
Envoyé : lundi 1 février 2010 21:02
À : Crevel Francois FRSC; Dave Sullivan; michael hammerson
Cc : Bob Jones; John Collier
Objet : RE: Alabama crew photo.
Dear Mr. Crevel,
I cannot see why you just ignore all the proper and decent opinions of the many experienced and qualified gentlemen who have told you, directly, that the photo is most definitely NOT of the ALABAMA. Several of these gentlemen have known about, and researched the ALABAMA, her officers and crew, and other aspects of the cruisers and Southern personnel in England, including Bulloch, for many years, some for decades. They are definitely much more qualified to make final decisions and observations about your photo, than Ron Tarburton.
You need to also consult the OFFICIAL RECORDS OF THE UNION AND CONFEDERATE NAVIES IN THE WAR OF THE REBELLION, and many other volumes, including Mr. Andrew Bowcock's volume on the CSS ALABAMA, all of which indicate and show that none of the uniforms of the Confederate personnel match anything that is shown in your photograph at all. Look, for instance, at the photos of the Confederate officers from the ALABAMA, and you will see that the uniforms do not match your photo at all, and the curled stripes shown on the end of the sleeves of the Confederate officers' uniforms are definitely missing in your photo. There are so many other such discrepancies in your photo, but, for some reason, you choose not to notice all of these.
The photo of the vessel shown in the top left hand corner of your photo is certainly not comparable at all the the photos that we know exist, of the ALABAMA. There is no comparison at all, no matter what assumptions you base your verdict on. The ALABAMA NEVER had a white stripe, and did not have one painted on, at any time. There is no documented proof at all of this, and if anyone tries to make an assumption, without any documentation whatsoever, that it did, then it is only a false assumption. Do you really believe that so many persons with so much knowledge about the Confederate Navy, and the Confederate Navy uniforms want to trick you into believing that your photo is not of the ALABAMA? Everyone is out to help you, as much as we can, not to deceive you in any way at all.
True historians and researchers help each other, and do not falsify and fabricate. So, if you still choose to disbelieve all of us, despite our collective assistance and joint efforts to help you, then it will be to your own detriment, and you will be the one who will eventually suffer the consequences.
We have suggested that you send the image, or a copy to the Museum of the Confederacy and the Maritime Museum, both of which will be able to confirm or deny what you state, but you have still chosen to ignore our helpful advise. It is no good sending us questions about the uniform, when it clearly differentiates quite a bit from that of the Confederate Navy uniform, as shown in the many photos in existence. If you continue to ignore our advise and assistance, then why bother contacting us in the first place. We have tried, from the beginning to help you, yet you ignore our final decisions on the photo.
I repeat our final decision - the photo is definitely NOT one showing the crew of the ALABAMA, and neither does it show the crew of the KEARSARGE. As stated directly by authorities from the U.S. Naval Historical Center, and others, it is not even any uniform worn by American personnel, at all, Union or Confederate. You were advised of this last year, yet you continue to ignore all this important data, from qualified persons, and still place messages online that the photo is of the ALABAMA. If you are not going to listen to those who know best, then there is no point even bothering to contact anyone of us, at all. We have tried to help you, from the very beginning, but you just choose to ignore our own decisions about the photo. The ball is in your court.
Best regards,
Terry.
--------------------------------
-----Message d'origine-----
De : françois CREVEL
Envoyé : mercredi 3 février 2010 07:35
À :
Cc :
Objet : RE: Alabama crew photo
Dear all,
I wanted first to tell you that I respect in good faith your professionalism and your career. But when I have an idea in my head I'm tough until you prove that I'm wrong. Returning now to the fact. I'll try to answer your various questions but also try to do the same. Respect the ideas of each is important in a democracy and he does speak louder than the other to be right. Regarding the photograph mosaic CSS ALABAMA, I will answer your first question about the white strip band. According to you, we do not see on any illustration or engraving of this alabama white stripe band on the hull of the ship. I answer in the negative as there are illustrations of time with the white stripe band. Include a single reference to a book which appears in an engraving frontpiece CSS ALABAMA with the white strip on a book written directly from the hand of Raphael Semmes. You will see then that this white band is on the etching and engraving that has been validated in person by Raphael Semmes. You could find this image on this URL and we have other images to proove that.
THE C.S.S. ALABAMA
Semmes. The Log of the Alabama and the Sumter (1865), front piece.
http://www.marshall.edu/library/speccoll/virtual_museum/css_alabama/alabama_images_menu.asp
Concerning the size of the ship, you can use a man at the front of the ship as a measurement scale and you will see that the dimensions of this vessel is between 200 and 220 feet. I send to you the image of this ship in order to verify that. We have found actually 14 similar points with the CSS ALABAMA. I reply to the second question about the uniforms purchased by Bulloch and the book "American civil war armies vol. 3 "
I send to you the URL
http://books.google.fr/books?id=mYpd0xTYWEMC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=bulloch+purchase+uniform&source=bl&ots=DRLsoEU4Bf&sig=8x2F_3CtMyemwLXnwzp3SmfG
I send to you the URL
http://books.google.fr/books?id=mYpd0xTYWEMC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=bulloch+purchase+uniform&source=bl&ots=DRLsoEU4Bf&sig=8x2F_3CtMyemwLXnwzp3SmfG
You could read page 40
"from other quartermaster reports it appears that the cloth was blue grey in color and each coat had a single row of seven brass buttons, each bearing the Roman Letter M on its face" and "a drawing of marines near Richmond shows the frock coat reaching to just above the knee." Now please look at the photomontage by RONDIN and look at the frock coat of some officers. The coat reaching to just above the knee has a single row of seven brass buttons. Very amazing isn't it?
please now read page 37. " all other petty officers except officers stewards and yeomen will wear the same device (foul anchor) on their left sleeves" and please read before this passage. You could see on the photomontage some crewmen with foul anchor on their left sleeves. Very amazing too? It's important to read all the content of this URL and you could see that there is a lot of similitude with the uniforms on the photograph.
Now on the identification of crew members of the CSS Alabama made by RON TARBURTON, I send you an attachment and I welcome your comments to this title. We have a phgotograph of Lt. Armstrong or Engineer Freeman or Master Mate Fullam and they are wearing the wrong type or color uniform I have a question for you Mr FOENANDER: why the really dark uniforms are being worn in all the Cape Town photos?I tried to find a grey uniform but there were none. However, I did spot one guy with white summer pants. We are taking the position that it seems that there are a number of people in the photo that arte members of the crew of the Alabama through matching officer photos with those in the Rondin photo collage pyramid group. The matching photos of identified persons are known photos of officers of the Alabama and the others are matched up with photos taken by the Cape Town photographer Arthur Green while the Alabama called there in August of 1863.
The other unidentified persons in the photo collage are part of a work in progress and we do not contend they are members of the crew of the Alabama until, they have been identified as such . We also feel that all other photo historical work related to the photos on the "photo collage page" is related to this work in progress .
François CREVEL
--Mr. Crevel,
That book that you give the attachment for actually states, and I quote, on page 37 "Officers were, however, photographed in regulation grey." Can you show me, anywhere in your photograph, where there are any of the officers shown in such "regulation grey" Confederate Navy uniforms, please? Thank you for any confirming factors that you want to believe in, but it still does not show any confirmation at all, that your photo is of the ALABAMA.
Regards,
Terry.
"from other quartermaster reports it appears that the cloth was blue grey in color and each coat had a single row of seven brass buttons, each bearing the Roman Letter M on its face" and "a drawing of marines near Richmond shows the frock coat reaching to just above the knee." Now please look at the photomontage by RONDIN and look at the frock coat of some officers. The coat reaching to just above the knee has a single row of seven brass buttons. Very amazing isn't it?
please now read page 37. " all other petty officers except officers stewards and yeomen will wear the same device (foul anchor) on their left sleeves" and please read before this passage. You could see on the photomontage some crewmen with foul anchor on their left sleeves. Very amazing too? It's important to read all the content of this URL and you could see that there is a lot of similitude with the uniforms on the photograph.
Now on the identification of crew members of the CSS Alabama made by RON TARBURTON, I send you an attachment and I welcome your comments to this title. We have a phgotograph of Lt. Armstrong or Engineer Freeman or Master Mate Fullam and they are wearing the wrong type or color uniform I have a question for you Mr FOENANDER: why the really dark uniforms are being worn in all the Cape Town photos?I tried to find a grey uniform but there were none. However, I did spot one guy with white summer pants. We are taking the position that it seems that there are a number of people in the photo that arte members of the crew of the Alabama through matching officer photos with those in the Rondin photo collage pyramid group. The matching photos of identified persons are known photos of officers of the Alabama and the others are matched up with photos taken by the Cape Town photographer Arthur Green while the Alabama called there in August of 1863.
The other unidentified persons in the photo collage are part of a work in progress and we do not contend they are members of the crew of the Alabama until, they have been identified as such . We also feel that all other photo historical work related to the photos on the "photo collage page" is related to this work in progress .
François CREVEL
--Mr. Crevel,
That book that you give the attachment for actually states, and I quote, on page 37 "Officers were, however, photographed in regulation grey." Can you show me, anywhere in your photograph, where there are any of the officers shown in such "regulation grey" Confederate Navy uniforms, please? Thank you for any confirming factors that you want to believe in, but it still does not show any confirmation at all, that your photo is of the ALABAMA.
Regards,
Terry.
4 comments:
Although he may at times have information that has some base in truth, I advise you to take Ron Tarburton's info with a grain of salt. He is a self-proclaimed authority on many topics. He manufactures "proof" that is often disputed by people with true expertise. One of his more recent research findings relates to Gettysburg Battlefield. He claims to have discovered tombs, with gold and jade artifacts, hidden there by the Phoenicians. He claims that the National Park Service is involved in removing these artifacts and keeping this from public knowledge.
He makes incredible leaps to conclusions, e.g., he knows that Jack Kennedy was involved in the death of his older brother and that the President was not assasinated - he is still alive. It was all an elaborate conspiracy perpetrated by the "mob" and the government to keep the scandal from the public. He claimed to have been writing a book based on his research when his home was visited by CIA agents (or as he refers to them - the Company) and his life was threatened.
This guy believes his own stories.
Tarburton moved from Pennsylvania in the past year and currently states his address as 1214 E. 26th Ave., Tampa, FL 33605. His e-mail address is mohhistory99 @ aol.com.
After three years of awaiting further developments in the case of the supposed ALABAMA photo, we have heard nothing further. This despite all the hoo ha about so called "cutting edge" research on the photo. It was plain to most researchers and even the experts at the Naval HIstorical Center that the photo was definitely not what it was claimed to be. The uniforms, the ship in the top right left corner, and other factors showed that it could not be American, Union or Confederate, yet Tarburton kept wanting to believe that it was the CSS ALABAMA. We tried to warn them that it was not what they claimed, but they would not believe us. Sadly, it seems that they will not advise everyone of their error, and thus these incorrect claims remain all over the Internet.
Sorry to hear that so much controversy has sprung up over this site but to those who placed it and shared their valued images and comments don't be disheartened, there are many of us interested in this period in history who are grateful to you for throwing a little more light on the topic. It is good to debate them but not to accuse or offend. Thank you again.
Robert taylor ACWRTQ Australia. Currently researching a crewman on ASlabama. bob-anne@aapt.net.au
Read the article published (in French) by bateauxcherbourg.fr@overblog.com, and you will discover a number of stupid assertions about the fight.
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